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LifeTrac - flat tow ability?
  • NOTE ON SELF: I am hoping to build a LifeTrac of my own as soon as spring 2011, hopefully no later than summer 2012. To me this is a critical feature if it is possible to have.

    Has anyone considered the addition of a 'flat towing' ability to the Life Trac tractor to make it easier to get it around when the work is not immediately local? Normally farm tractors require trailers - trailers are expensive and add another 1000lbs often in this weight class. Since the LifeTrac often already mounts pickup tires and such that are usable at normal highway speeds it would seem to be little difficulty to make it able to directly hitch up to a vehicle and be towed "four down".

    The most immediate mechanical issue is the free wheeling of the tires at high speeds - I do not know whether this is hydraulically possible (or wise) or the hydraulic motors can spin at those shaft speeds without difficulty. An alternate possibility would be the use of old manual 4x4 hubs from say pickups. Since it is already using pickup wheels most of the time this should not be hard to add - you simply turn the center of the hub to disengage it from the motors/inbound stuff. However this solution would lack brakes...

    Weights over 2990lbs (in the US anyways) require the addition of trailer brakes normally, if the LifeTrac could just be licensed as a trailer, if electric trailer brakes could somehow be added in some way this would keep it legal and safer.

    I do not know whether brakes are required on all axles or not - maybe one workaround could be to have the main axles freewheel and add a trailer axle with 8" wheels and brakes if they cannot be (easily) added to the main wheels for highway towing?

    If total weights of the LifeTrac can remain at 3500lbs or less (which I think it is based on my last perusal of plans) it can be towed by common FWD sedans and minivans - this is a major improvement in usability. Previously a full size RWD sedan, small pickup or full size pickup is absolutely REQUIRED because this weight is exceeded, certainly once you add a dual axle trailer to the mix. (note this weight goal may not be possible with some other posts/suggestions i'm making like use of auto engines. :P )




    If total weight
     
  • 8 Comments sorted by
  • Vote Up0Vote Down
    Clifton
     
    November 2011
    I am not sure of the braking requirements.  Assuming trailer brakes are not required, if you uncoupled the hydraulics I would think you could flat tow it without problems.  I would be more concerned about the tracks around the wheels than the hydraulic motors without load on them.  I would think you would need to remove the tracks for flat towing and town directly on the tires. 

    With that said, I think a trailer or a truck body capable of hauling the LifeTrac is probably a better scenario in any case.  A trailer or truck allows for the transportation of multiple implements to be attached to the LifeTrac at the new location. With flat towing you have to decide what subset to take with you.  Better to have the rolling toolbox with room for the tractor.
     
  • Perhaps the tracks could be given some form of attach/detach like snowchains have... you just have one link that you tie together with a turnbuckle, padlock, or whatever (in those that need this flat tow ability... like me, not able to afford to build a trailer as well at this point) assuming that tracks are even necessary in all environments. (I thought the original was 4 drive wheels no tracks anyways?)

    I agree that it is "better", my main point is that poverty forces compromises. :-/ Many of my designs are probably going to count as substandard hacks less than the ideal, for where 1/10th the cost of professional equipment still is not low enough. Such hacks may be chosen by other people in similar situations, ie latin america, africa, where saving every last dollar is the only way to even get in the minimum ground floor... and later upgrading things to what the ideal standard should be once life is more stable.

    For people in my situation, who might need to haul the tractor only rarely, such as to be repaired at another location (even if you can fix it yourself maybe you lack a warm barn to do it in so you bring it to the neighbors a few miles away) or a one time move over longer distance like I know I will have to do, or who only haul it to some jobsite away from home two or three times in the entire year, or who simply cannot afford a proper tow vehicle or HAVE to make do with what they have... this creates options. Even if I had to bring a small 4x6 flatbed back later and load up the implements I left in the field or bring them on a separate trip. I'm trying to see whether the tiniest of modifications to the design can somehow greatly enhance usability and freedom of alternative options in situations of the greatest poverty, especially when they cause no impairments to any of the originally planned needs or uses of the design.
     
  • Hi Jerry,


    I don't think it will be possible and legal to tow a Lifetrac3 on a road.


    The tracks have to be removed. Next problem are the used tires, if they are too much worn down for a truck, they won't be legal on a trailer too.


    It's too heavy to be towed without brakes, and adding them will be difficult as there are no provisions for brae discs or brake drums.


    Also it has no steering and a long wheelbase. Try to make a tight turn and You will see what 2 tons Lifetrac do with your minivan.....


    There is IMO only one way the Lifetrac3 has to go: back to the drawing board ! But as FeF has ignored all advice on its design, so what


    Mike

     
  • to Bastelmike:

    Such negative thinking! :)

    Legality - it should be licenseable as a trailer, you can homebuild trailers for instance, yeah it looks funny and has an engine but I think it could meet the legal definition of 'trailer' at the DMV if you arent driving it.
    Removing tracks - not hard.
    Use better tires than the most worn out ones then.
    Yes its heavy but no heavier than any other 3500lb trailer would be, they are all a bit awkward at that weight.
    Adding brake drums.. should it really be that hard? Couldn't we just grab a pickup axle or something and connect the inner splined part of the shaft to the hydraulic motors and then rig them up for electric activation, or modify existing trailer brakes?
    Normal trailers dont steer...

    The long wheelbase I will admit is an issue, perhaps the only critical one I see here at the moment. But thats clumsy, not necessarily irresolvable. Fancy reengineering might even move axles closer together to be moved - this is not as big of a deal as it would be on something that wasnt just bolted to a hydraulic motor itself bolted to a frame. Would take a few minutes, inconvenient perhaps, but not unsolvable for those people that had to make tighter turns without some skidding. Another option (which might 'solve' both legal issues and wheelbase issues) would be some kind of designed in or designed compatible lightweight dolly which could be far lighter than a normal car dolly for instance, contain brakes on it's one axle, and pull the LifeTrac "two down" after removing the drive chains. That should be able to weigh alot less than either a car dolly or a trailer made to haul the whole thing, at least getting it within maybe 4200lb range within reach of most RWD full size sedans and compact pickups with smaller engines instead of the 6500 a normal farm tractor on trailer probably weighs.

    Yes the above requires some reengineering. What i'm trying to do is minimize the reengineering needed, all the above sound like fairly minor problems to solve except maybe the changeable wheelbase one. Even if others do not implement any of my (or others suggestions) on a current Lifetrac project, there is the option for starting up cooperative projects and forking off designs to meet the needs of others under the open source model.

    Who else has made notable advice (ignored or not) for changes in design? I'm curious to read what 'improvements' others have suggested in case I do get motivated and fork my own version in the future... heck before I found this project over a year ago I was working on my own tractor designs based off the great depression era 'doodlebugs', the biggest difference here is the use of a hydraulic drive design which hopefully will prove to be long lasting and durable for years of use without replacements and such. The other things i'd wanted (flat towing, connecting to proprietary 3pt hitches from last century and similar) i'm suggesting on these boards because at least of perceived overlap of interests even if I still in the end go my own way and build my own tractor instead of a LifeTrac. (but perhaps built it compatible to use LifeTrac attachments like the backhoe) The big question will be does the LifeTrac serve the users (adapting the design to needs just like open source software, even if you have to code your own modifications) or do users have to serve the previously decided 'best' version of the LifeTrac and no diversion is allowed? Even if it's the latter it just means fork off, see if people prefer my interpretation and still make as much of the research benefit both groups because I see 90% overlap even where I have different ideas.
     
  • Vote Up0Vote Down
    mjnmjn
     
    November 2011
    @jerryshaw - By all means take what you learn from OSE and put it to good use, even if that means a few concepts like the use of hydraulic motor drive.  Open Source development is strengthened by people forking a design and improving on it - with one proviso.  I would strongly encourage you to write up any changes or improvements you make and put them on the OSE wiki as open source contributions.  Designs will improve over time as people like yourself find the weak points and fix them, but only if the results are communicated back to the collective community.

    Regarding @bastelmike's comment on FeF ignoring design advice.  Factor e Farm, as led by Marcin Jakubowski (founder and visionary of OSE) has it's own agenda with respect to development.  Marcin has a clear picture in his mind of how to reach the vision he described years ago for the Global Village Construction Set (GVCS).  Those plans include finalizing the first release of build plans for the CEB, LifeTrack, and PowerCube by Christmas of this year.  Additionally, he is deeply involved in building a new living facility on the farm.  As such, suggestions for improvements tend to be more of distraction at this time.

    That shouldn't stop you from making improvements, however.  Your ideas about a tow-able LifeTrac are interesting, IMO.  Why not write up the issues and your ideas and add them to the wiki in an appropriate place.  Eventually, someone will have the same challenges and will find that page in the wiki.  Your contribution will help guide their thinking and perhaps even provide a solution or two.

    - Mark

     
  • Thats just it, if I CAN garner any interest from others, I would like help in design or building my own fork. If I CANNOT get the slightest degree of interest from anyone else, i'm willing to engineer up changes by myself because they meet my own needs. I plan to/hope to share all such information freely with everyone and would like to see it incorporated elsewhere - I personally think I have a "better way" to do some things, if I cannot convince others with words perhaps I will have to build it, post/share my stories and prove through actions. (although that becomes more difficult than if I had at least some help obviously. :( )

    I guess at the minimum I am hoping others could recognize the mutual benefits and perhaps make a little room at the table... ie help me engineer in my changes or better understand the consequences of the changes i'm proposing to help me avoid expensive mistakes... if others can offer their design advice or insight into why what i'm suggesting is a BAD idea or wont work that gets me to a good solution I can share with others that much sooner. For the posts i've made on several topics so far I see people suggesting reasons they personally might not choose to do it that way even though it is probably less expensive to do it that way... I can only assume it's because they have more funding access than I do and the compromises i'd have to make seem fine to me, they are the difference between having it and not being able to have it. I know I need a reliable inexpensive tractor, and GVCS is the closest route so far to getting one, but is still above my available funds, even though once I have one it will free me from other bills, which will let me do things 'the right way' later if the hassles and compromises which my modifications have made become too burdensome or time consuming to want to continue doing.

    I'm posting my ideas under the belief that it will be of mutual future interest, even if it may not seem to be immediately of interest to others projects. So far however some of the posts i'm making suggesting changes useful to situations of more desperate poverty and not affording to do things the ideal way seem to be encountering negative responses and almost feel unwelcome. :( I am getting mixed signals whether this is a totally open project meant for everyone to explore and find the best solutions for them, or whether this is exclusively a pet project meant to enlist others work in finishing it and all divergent ideas should go elsewhere.
     
  • Vote Up0Vote Down
    mjnmjn
     
    November 2011
    >  I would like help in design or building my own fork.

    I think there are people around who are willing to pitch, given the chance.  I was very keen on building my own PowerCube and LifeTrac, but I'm not really in a position to build one at this time and the longer I wait, the better the design will be, I think.  It's been interesting to see OSE evolve over the past six months.

    >  above my available funds

    You are certainly not alone in not really having the money to buy a new tractor.  Most people getting into farming do not have that kind of money, even if they have a regular job.  Even a basic tractor runs $25,000 new - though used tractors can be had for much less.  Frankly, I think the older tractors are better made anyways.  Where you have an advantage over most is having access to tools and a shop, plus the skill to use them.

    >  I am getting mixed signals whether this is a totally open project meant
    for everyone to explore and find the best solutions for them, or whether
    this is exclusively a pet project meant to enlist others work in
    finishing it and all divergent ideas should go elsewhere.

    You are getting such mixed signals because they ARE mixed.  Depends who you talk to.  There are those who feel that control is more important than having many hands and minds on the task.  There are many who want an open, collaborative approach to GVCS development, but most of them are in no position to affect change.  It's not all black and white.  There is a lot of misty grey in there, too.  If you can get what you need from OSE, great.  If not, take what you can and see what else you can find.

    - Mark
     
  • Well even very used tractors are out of my budget, at least once they break, and they will... which was why the LifeTrac was designed in the first place apparently. However thanks for making me think about things... it's possible that I wouldn't need a tractor immediately, I do definately need the ability to ram earthblocks to build a house and barn out of earthblocks. Once I have those I can build the Lifetrac inside the barn for instance and have more use for all the things a tractor can do...

    The decent output earth block ramming machines cost way too much by themselves... though if it's normally powered off the tractor I guess i'd have to power it separately somehow, maybe off the power cube. Though I still have the issue of needing pulverized soil to feed into it and I don't know if I want to shovel all that out by hand, hmm... so maybe I still do need a tractor of some sort, even if its the 18hp single wheel walkbehind version if some kind of mini pulverizer could be made or scaled down.
     

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