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Is OSE a capitalistic system?
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    RabertRabert
     
    January 2013
    This community is no anarchistic entity. There are rules. There is property.

    The forest belongs to the community, not to one single person of the community. The use of this property is subject to majority decision of the community, and not on the whim of a single person. If wood is needed, the community and/or lumberjack professionals within the community decide which trees are to cut. Nobody just strolls into the forest into the neighbours garden to cut a tree for his needs, he gets the wood from the forest department of the community. Just imagine you would be working for a company with a car pool. Would you just take the keys and use the car, or would you go to the car department and ask for a car? What would happen to you, if you would just take a car without asking and without permission?

    It is quite simple, when you change your mindset about this community from a public service and organizationentity (like a town) to a privately owned corporation. Think corporation, not town. Our community is primarily a corporation which also provides public service for its members. Corporations have an established set of codes, which can be much more strictly and swiftly enforced then public law.
     
  • So you are not really talking about a community but a separate civilization partly or somehow isolated from the rest of civilization?

    This civilization would magically adhere to certain rules and limitations artificially but also somehow magically produce technology and leisure time.

    We kind of have real examples of this in the world now - a good example might be native communities in northern Canada. These places are just a disaster despite massive money infusions and aid programs.

    I would suggest reading as much as possible about how these communities work and even living in one for a few years before coming to any strong conclusions about resetting civilization to some new local optimum under the religion of sustainability.

    I am really surprised you are thinking corporation - a corporation is just modern slavery. At best it is a dictatorship. Who wants to live under a dictator being told what to do. At worse it becomes some fascist state where people live with no protections.

    What are much better ideas are cooperative corporations/businesses. At least in this way you are only organizing a single narrow dimension of peoples lives within the framework of existing civilization. For some reason it is really hard to convince people to give up a real job to work for less at a coop and only if the coop makes a profit all while being run by people who couldn't get a real management job in the first place!

    Yes there are people who would just take the car especially if the use of the car was not sanctioned by the car pool authority? What do you do then ..... but more to the point where do the mechanics, spare parts, oil, fuel all come from. How do you efficiently rationalize the car use against increased community productivity or wealth.

    Even if you recreated all the elements of civilization (Money, language, mobility, police, judges, spiritual leadership, education, etc, etc) but enforced limits like everybody can only wear black clothes and tennis shoes all you will have is a very poor country constrained by its limited population and territory.

    I am not convinced at all that any of this makes any sense.

    What we should all be working towards is a global community maybe over the next 100 years (that is starting to emerge because of the internet, global mobility, global investment, etc) We need a global standard of human rights and protections, education, basic health care, freedom from oppression of all types. All this will come from increases in technology and personal wealth. 

    It looks like a few panda bears, elephants, tiger, etc, etc may buy the farm in the process which is really unfortunate and we will have to get through some climate change - hopefully not too dramatic but maybe this will have some positive effects too - and we make it through this tough period of human transition.

    Everybody going camping even if it does have a car pool is just not helping nor is it going to happen.

    If anybody wants too they are welcome to camp in my back yard and live off my recycling bin and I will let you use the car if it is for community sanctioned profits as long as you keep my firewood supply topped up but don't cut down any of my trees!

     
  • Skeptical, i think you are just too... skeptical
    Those communities in Canada are nothing like what Rabert is advocating. They are just a bunch of primitive people who do not care to participate into community issues, they don't debate the future of the community, they don't even bother to create rules to be respected, and so on.
    A sustainable community can be build only with people who involve into the democratic process (i.e. participate into decision making). Not everyone in the world can be part of such a community and such communities can't change the world. They can only provide an oasis of peace and prosperity to those who want to participate. For the rest of the people - there is the "normal" world, which is, quite frankly just a big prison. A prison for the lazy people who don't want to involve into community issues, for the lazy people who expect that the system (government) fixes everything for them.
    Our hope is to find others like us and to create the communities where we feel like we escaped from the prison.
    We can't change the population of the world. We can only give them an example. But it's only their choice if they want to follow a good example and live differently - or not.

    It's not a good idea to create a community totally isolated from the rest of the world for a lot of reasons. Such a reason is that the community can exclude easily those who make troubles without facing the dilemma of where to send them.
    Until the community can implement it's own insurance, health care, retirement, etc., it's just better to use the existing ones.
    The process of gaining more autonomy from the rest of the world is very important and the community must proceed with extreme caution and care.

    We are not talking about a religion of sustainability. There is nothing mystical or coming from a "divine source". We are talking about a set of rules created by the minds of the people, a set of rule shaped to respect the principle of sustainability.

    Cooperative managers are not incompetent by definition. There are lots of cooperatives in the western world which are doing quite well. The problem in the "communist" countries was that the firms called "cooperatives" were in fact just companies owned by a government, and they were very inefficient because of the incompetence of the governments. And those governments were not implementing any communism. They just enslaved the people, labeling themselves "communists".

    In countries where they had strange rules like all the people wear black shoes and shirts, that happened because there were idiots in the government who also have no idea what economy is. They had some primitive leaders, and the black shirts rule only reflected their primitivism and stupidity. But other than that, certain restrictions can't automatically lead to poverty. Strict laws against pedophiles, alcohol, and even against pornography will not lead to poverty. There are rich arab countries with rules like that and their population are doing very well. Strange rules like everyone in black shirts can tell you how narrow the minds of the leaders are, and if they are so, then most probably they have no idea what economy is, too.

    What we should all be working towards is a global community maybe over the next 100 years (that is starting to emerge because of the internet, global mobility, global investment, etc) We need a global standard of human rights and protections, education, basic health care, freedom from oppression of all types.
    That will never happen if we wait for the majority of the people to do it. There is infinitely bigger change to get there via governments doing it.
    The best we can do is to find others like us to create sustainable communities.

    All this will come from increases in technology and personal wealth.
    Personal wealth can be increased only when we have strict rules in place. Especially strict rules against speculation, monopoly, cartels, and by implementing security measures like public housing and a few government controlled companies who will give jobs to the unemployed, making sure everyone gets a job when the capitalists won't create enough jobs.

     
  • @ Skeptical

    Sorry, was busy and then forgot to answer your comment. Better late then never, I think ...

    So you are not really talking about a community but a separate civilization partly or somehow isolated from the rest of civilization?

    Seperate yes, isolated no. The latter is not possible today anymore, anyhow. Seperate, just like the Amish for instance live seperate from the "normal" people.

    This civilization would magically adhere to certain rules and limitations artificially but also somehow magically produce technology and leisure time.

    There is no magic, like there is no magic in creating and adhereing to rules in today's society and to produce things in today's society.

    We kind of have real examples of this in the world now - a good example might be native communities in northern Canada. These places are just a disaster despite massive money infusions and aid programs.

    That is because they were pressed into that system and not by their own free decisions. And because they want to mimic "western" lifestyle, disregarding that the restrains from their locations, their history, the present laws and regulations they have to accept, and their exposition to the marketing indoctrinations do not allow that.

    I am really surprised you are thinking corporation - a corporation is just modern slavery. At best it is a dictatorship. Who wants to live under a dictator being told what to do. At worse it becomes some fascist state where people live with no protections.

    You miss the point, that in a corporation there are two types of people: the owners and the workers. You decribe the position of the workers, who work for the owners. In my concept, all participants are owners of an equal part of the corporation. No one ownes more then one other, no one make others do something. If you want something done, you need a majority vote - depending on what you want to change or to introduce something between the majority of all voters up to a 100% agreement of all people. No slavery here.

    What are much better ideas are cooperative corporations/businesses. At least in this way you are only organizing a single narrow dimension of peoples lives within the framework of existing civilization. For some reason it is really hard to convince people to give up a real job to work for less at a coop and only if the coop makes a profit all while being run by people who couldn't get a real management job in the first place!


    It seems, you haven't read major portions of this discussion (what is not surprising, looking at the extend of this). This community is not about jobs or profits, but about producing everything you need to live a healthy and fulfilling live. You do not need TV sets, cars or two dozen of shirts for that, and no financial advisers or insurance salespeople. You don't need salespeople of anything, since everything is given away for free and not sold at all. If it is decided that there will be a pound of bread for each person in the community each day, then the community will raise the grain for that amount, produce the flour and bake the bread, and you just pick up your fresh loaf every morning. You yourself will have worked in the provision of shirts, or of wood, or of meat, or cleaning the streets, or medical services, or whatever in exactly the amount as needed, what is picked up by those who need it for free as well. In the end, everybody gets everything needed, without paying money for it, but just contributing to the production of goods or services on a different point themselves. It is actually quite straight forward and easy, when you allow yourself to forget the ideas of money and profit. Everyone will live secure, healthy and virtually stress free, because they are looked after by the community, just as they themselves look after the community.

    Even if you recreated all the elements of civilization (Money, language, mobility, police, judges, spiritual leadership, education, etc, etc) but enforced limits like everybody can only wear black clothes and tennis shoes all you will have is a very poor country constrained by its limited population and territory.

    Is poor when you only have the amount of shirts you need instead of 3 times as much? If you don't have a car, even when you don't need one, while others have 3 they don't really need when they would organize their life in a smart way? Define poor, and take into account what is needed to live a good life, and define a good life in the sense of what is needed to live a healthy, safe and secure life.

    I am not convinced at all that any of this makes any sense.

    It does not make sense at all, when you stick to the paradigms of capitalism, or to what the marketing indoctrinators of those who profit from your working you ass off to make them richer by buying there useless and unneeded goods and services. They invest on average more than 100 USD per person in the world per year, what is more then half the planet has to live from, only to convince you that you need things you in reality do not need.

    All this will come from increases in technology and personal wealth.

    Where should this increase in technology and wealth come from? Growth? Just do the calculation yourself, what e.g. 3%, 5% or even 10% of growth each year (plus, when you want to increase the wealth of each person on average, you need to account population growth as well), for the next 50, 100, 500 or 1,000 years will to to the amount of things produced and resources used up. You will easily realize, that this idea is simply stupid, because it is impossible without colonizing our solar system (and later our galaxy) first.
     
  • I have no intention to participate in this discussion beyond suggesting that this discussion is unlikely to be fruitful primarily because the terms are not clearly defined. Seriously, without clarity in the definitions of the terms in use here, then you all might as well post random strings of characters.

     
  • You would prefer any discussion to have some kind of preface with a glossary? Besides that this is a quite strange requirement to allow a discussion to be started, could it not be, that definitions are an outcome, one of the results of such discussions?

    I do not think that any of the major terms in this discussion is undefined. In the worst case, you look it up at Wikipedia or google a term, when you are not sure what is being talked about, or when there is a dispute between the meanings of words used. Unless you are not familiar with the english language. Than in fact you are right and all these pages of text are nothing more than random strings of characters. What, by the way, would be true for all texts in the opensourceecology domain.
     
  • I am new to OSE but have recently studied the web page, wiki page, videos and some of the forum. I summarized the aim of OSE at the top of my post here as I gathered it from different pages of this web site.

    The aim seems to be to enable ecological small farms to build affordable tools to self-support the farmer (and his family?) with maximum 2-3 hours of daily work. So the emphasis seems to be on independence rather than amassing financial wealth. But nothing is written what the OSE farmer is doing in his free 5 hours of daily work. He could use it for many things also for amassing wealth. So in my opinion the society of OSE farmers is not socialistic or capitalistic it just provides more choices about how to use the gained freedom.
    However since the OSE farmers are entrepreneurs and not (any more) employees they move towards the capitalistic side. Land after all is a capitalistic asset. If considerable numbers of people leave employment in a large corporations and start a small OSE farm as a small independent entrepreneur this inverts the direction of flow of wealth of previously towards the few large capitalists now towards many small capitalists. The big capitalists might consider that socialistic. But it is only from their warped perspective.
     

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