Visit the forum instructions to learn how to post to the forum, enable email notifications, subscribe to a category to receive emails when there are new discussions (like a mailing list), bookmark discussions and to see other tips to get the most out of our forum!
OS Car project management
  • From the OSE’s Car/Research_Development wiki page:

    “The basic requirements for the OS Car are: Two passenger
    capacity, Ultra-high fuel economy (50+ MPG, city, 100+ MPG, highway),
    Ultra-long range (1000+ miles), Low Cost (less than $12,000), Ease of Construction
    (1000 hours of construction time. Can be constructed by one person in 1000
    hours with a vertical mill, band saw, disc sander, grinding wheel, air
    compressor, welder).”



    While I wasn’t party to establishing these “basic
    requirements” I did communicate with Marcin at some length about this car in
    2010. I am confident all these requirements can be met, with the first
    prototype more expensive than the required per-unit cost by $3000, to cover
    tooling materials and outside labor/services*. I was (and am) so confident that
    I offered to put my money where my mouth is—if I was given the responsibility
    and authority of project manager and couldn’t bring the project in with a
    $15,000 budget, I would donate any additional money needed to bring the project
    to completion, on spec and on schedule.



    As you who were on the committee considering my proposal
    know, the proposal was rejected. I suspect one reason is y’all didn’t have
    enough reason to believe I could deliver the goods and another is y’all felt
    you could build your OSCar prototype in-house and in parallel with the other 49
    devices of the GVCS, more quickly and for less money than by putting me on the
    team. We parted amicably, and I was truly rooting for you folks to beat my
    schedule (delivery by December 2011) and budget (fifteen grand).



    I was also interested to see how many of the design and
    concept points we’d disagreed on would be implemented in your finished product.
    Although I lack Marcin’s conceptual genius or academic credentials, I’m a
    pretty good plodder, and in the small pond of efficient transportation my
    experience is of practical value.



    But it’s been a year, and in light of the current status of
    your OSCar, perhaps you’d be willing to reconsider my qualifications as its
    project manager.



    Admittedly, I have not improved my academic qualifications
    since my original proposal. OSE wiki’s Subject Matter Experts page lists 75
    categories under “Experts are needed…” and #3 is “Automotive engineers for open
    source car and truck design”. I don’t have an engineering degree, but I do have
    considerable engineering knowledge and experience. Other companies have found
    ways to exploit my engineering skills (Boeing and Lockheed come to mind) sans
    degree, sidestepping their HR departments by contracting with my companies and
    letting my own companies hire me to do the work. Surely you can do similarly;
    it’s not like it’s a paid position and it doesn’t appear you have suitably
    degreed volunteers willing to take the task.



    In 2011 I achieved all your OS Car requirements with a car
    I’m building for Mother Earth News. It’s called MAX (Mother’s Automotive
    eXperiment) and you can find details at…



    http://www.motherearthnews.com/blogs/blog.aspx?blogid=1500&tag=MAX



    MAX meets or exceeds all your requirements for passenger
    capacity, ultra high mileage, and even 1000+mile range (which I think is kind
    of silly, and MAX only meets it because it runs on a variety of fuels; a 9
    gallon main tank for diesel/biodiesel, and a 2.5 gallon tank for straight
    vegetable oil). To date MAX has cost me less than $8000 (which is 2/3 your
    $12,000 requirements) and 250 hours of work (which is less than ¼ your 1000
    hour requirement), and in 2011 it toured from Oregon to Pennsylvania and back.
    MAX has made numerous public showings and public demonstrations, and its best
    fuel mileage competition results, in mixed rural and freeway driving, is 127
    mpg; see…



    http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/2011-%20Fuel%20Economy%20Contests/2011-Mid-Ohio-results.html



    So to those who doubted in 2010 that I could be lead
    designer and project manager of such a car, I now can stand on my record. I
    guess I could have gone back to school and worked on my degree instead, but I
    was too busy doing stuff, and to quote the late Roy LoPresti, Everything that
    gets taught in school got learned somewhere else.



    There has been one significant change in your OS Car project
    since 2010: according to the wiki, OSE still intends to have this car
    deliverable at the end of 2012, which means you now have 1 year to do it
    instead of 2 years, and that’s giving OSE one month’s credit for its research
    to date. I suppose the project may have made great progress in secret, but that
    seems so contrary to the OSE philosophy of transparency that I think the car
    project is currently unguided, and there are no specific plans to get it done.



    You have some choices to make before you can go any further.
    First of all, you need to decide which of the choices you’ve already made are
    set in stone and which are flexible—which are based on knowledge and which are
    based on opinion. There are too many technical contradictions on the…



    http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Open_Source_Car



    http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Open_Source_Car/Research_Development



    http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Open_Source_Car/Research_Development/Concept_Design



    …pages for them to guide this project as is. If you want the
    OS Car project to succeed—that is, meet your requirements, on budget and on
    schedule—you need to select a project manager and get on with it.



    Which brings me to an important question. Is this a project
    you actually want done, or is it serving its purpose in its current state—an
    artist’s conception and a lofty goal. If the OS Car’s purpose is to attract
    funding, then presenting the concept in the wiki will probably give you a
    better ROI than really building it. However, in the long run, I think a flesh-and-blood
    OS Car will more than pay for itself—it will add credibility to the whole GVCS
    concept, and a car is so much easier to show in person than a bulldozer or CEB
    press, because you can drive a car to where it is being shown; drive it to
    business meetings, drive it to TED talks, and so forth.



    *Outside labor and services will get less expensive as more
    of the GVCS is completed, but if you want the car this year, you can’t wait for
    the Laser Cutter, CNC Precision Multimachine, and Induction Furnace.







     
  • 5 Comments sorted by
  • Jack, you've done a lot of great work with your car. It's definitely an interesting concept and much farther along than anything being worked on currently (nothing). Your post on here is probably meant for Marcin, so this is definitely not the right place to post it since he doesn't actually frequent the forums lol...I'd suggest sending this to his e-mail directly. 

    It is certainly true that the 2012 timeline is a little bit ridiculous for the GVCS 50 imho when you start looking at what is actually achieved month to month. From what I know it's only been in the past 6 months that there has actually been a good influx of funding to start getting some of these projects rolling. The downside is the organizational structure online and managerial is just not there to meet the 2012 date. 

    Having said all that there are constant improvements happening all the time outside of the official Marcin chain which slowly help grow the community in a positive direction. I don't believe in the GVCS 50 by 2012, but I believe in the power of a forward moving open source community to slowly advance the open source hardware movements which is a more realistic goal. I'm not saying don't strive high, but understand the realities of the goals.

    Now for your particular situation. The wiki is completely open, anyone can create content, approach projects at different angles and pursue their own goals. Why not develop a wiki with all the work you've done here for everyone, nothing is really stopping you. Additionally, Marcin is very big on seeing results before trusting someone, with the work you've done it's clear you have those credentials so why not toss some of this work up on the wiki and point Marcin at it?

    If you'd like I can change the OS Car page to more like the tractor page so there can be multiple versions/iterations of it. It would make organization and linking much easier for you I think as well so you don't have to overwrite or worry about your content being over written by others (if there were any others) working on the OS Car.
     
  • Thanks for the kind words, Mike. I may be misunderstanding this entire OSE concept, and may be going down quite a rabbit trail, but by golly the wiki and forum are quite confusing when it comes to how things are done (or not done) at OSE. You can clarify some things for me. But first, perhaps I should clarify...

    >Jack, you've done a lot of great work with your car. It's definitely an
    interesting concept and much farther along than anything
    >being worked on
    currently (nothing).

    ...that I'm not proposing MAX as a substitute for the OS Car. It's presented as evidence that I'm capable of managing such a project. My dad brought me up not to complain unless I have a solution to offer; the OS Car needs hands-on project management, it needs it soon, and I'm willing to do it if you can't find someone more appealing.

    >Your post on here is probably meant for Marcin, so
    this is definitely not the right place to post it...

    I thought the Open Source Ecology Forums was the right place to post. Both the wiki and the forum indicate that OSE is a group effort, and when I was talking with Marcin I was under the impression he spoke for the OSE community and was relaying community decisions. I tried to post this on the Project Management forum, but I'm not allowed to post there, so I posted under GVCS Technical Development. I sure wasn't trying to go behind Marcin's back, I was presenting my case to the community that rejected my offer a year ago, hoping that the passage of time (and lack of progress) might prompt this community to reconsider. If one man makes the decisions, then I should go to that one man, but that's sure not the way OSE is presented to the public.

    >...since he doesn't
    actually frequent the forums lol

    Wow. That never occurred to me. There are all these people here (you and me included) supporting Marcin's vision, offering our services and making suggestions on implementing his vision, and Marcin doesn't read them? So what is the point of the forums?

    >It is certainly true that the 2012
    timeline is a little bit ridiculous for the GVCS 50 imho

    I'm a one-trick pony (okay, two tricks, if Marcin adds an aircraft to the GVCS list) and not qualified to speak/do much besides the Open Source Automobile, but I'm sure you're right re the GVCS 50. So how about the GVCS 8 or 9 or 10? Some of the projects will get done, and the more the merrier. As well as adding to the success number, the OS Car will draw public interest to OSE in a way that several other GVCS components will not. For example, I see the GVCS Drill Press is in its prototyping phase now, so I'd wager it will meet the 2012 timeline, but since one can buy a serviceable drill press today for a couple hundred bucks, it's not likely to get a lot of ink.

    >I
    believe in the power of a forward moving open source community to slowly
    advance the open source hardware movements which is a more realistic
    goal.

    So do I, but OSC, as a forward moving open source community, advanced the OS Car project so slowly in 2011 that the progress was indiscernible by outside observers. Building an open source car in a hundred years is a more realistic goal than building one in two years, but if progress is sufficiently glacial, even the True Fans will give up on you.

    >I'm not saying don't strive high, but understand the realities of
    the goals.

    In this case, the reality is sufficiently high. OSE can have a functional OS Car prototype by year's end, without getting in the way of any FeF activity, if OSE (which I guess means Marcin) green-lights a capable project manager in the next couple of weeks. Had OSE/Marcin done so in 2010, the OS Car could have reached Full Release in 2012, but building a prototype is a worthy strive in the right direction.

    >Why
    not develop a wiki with all the work you've done here for everyone,
    nothing is really stopping you.

    A MAX wiki on opensourceecology.org? Is "why not" a rhetorical question. There are lots of reasons why not:

    --MAX is not Open Source Ecology's project. MAX was developed by Kinetic Vehicles (my company) on behalf of Mother Earth News. Nothing is really stopping me, but it would not be appropriate to use the MAX design as a promotional tool for Open Source Ecology.
    --MAX is already open source. It will never be developed to the OSE Standard of Full Release, but all the necessary drawings and sources are available from KV and adventuresome builders are making do.
    --MAX doesn't need a wiki. The information on its development is readily available through MEN and KV. If someone can read a wiki, they can google "max" and "car", or either of the business names associated with MAX, or even my personalized license plate (MAX MPG) and they'll find a link or two on the first page of results.
    --It takes time to develop a wiki. If I'm not going to be involved in the OS Car project, then it's a waste of time. If I am going to be involved in the OS Car project, then it's time better spent developing the OS Car. Each project requires eight steps, and I think the Design Rationale/Specification step needs to be done this month.
    --Re "Marcin is very big on
    seeing results before trusting someone...why not toss some of this work up on
    the wiki and point Marcin at it?", unless Marcin doesn't read these forums as a matter of principle, pointing him to the forum should be as effective as pointing him to the wiki.
       ----and finally----
    --When I tried to add MAX to the Research list of cars on...
    http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Car/Research_Development
    ...the error message told me I did not have permission to edit that page. After the trouble I went through for permission to post on this forum, I'm not moved to seek further permissions.

    So unless developing a OSE wiki page is a rite of passage for budding project managers, I'll pass for now. If somebody would like to send me Marcin's preferred e-mail address (to jackATkineticvehiclesDOTcom) I'll drop him a line and point him here, or cut-and-paste this discussion into a message if he prefers. And I will recommend to Marcin that he either start work on the OS Car himself, delegate the work to a project manager, or delete the OS Car from the Open Source Ecology 2012 things-to-do list.












     mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">



     
  • Vote Up0Vote Down
    mjnmjn
     
    February 2012
    >  So unless developing a OSE wiki page is a rite of passage for budding project managers, I'll pass for now.

    Actually, it kinda is.  Since the wiki is where all OSE documentation starts, it's a good idea to establish that you have an account there and know how to use MediaWiki to document things.  It is less about your technical experience in the subject area and more about how you will contribute your work to OSE.

    You need a separate account for the wiki.  I can help you get set up, if you like.  Once you can edit wiki pages you're all set - there are no more accounts to be set up for OSE.

    The Project Manager forum is limited to designated OSE project managers.  The project leader for the OSE Car effort hasn't been determined yet.

    - Mark

     
  • >>  So unless developing a OSE wiki page is a rite of passage for budding project managers, I'll pass for now.

    > Actually, it kinda is.

    Fair enough, Mark, and I'm working on it. I got a wiki account and I'm mostly working on the 'discussion' page and the 2012 OS Car Specs forum page, I think I need more input before I strike out on my own. And thanks for the clarification re the Project manager forum, I'd not known where to ask questions re project management.
     
  • Hi Jack - I'm glad I read through this thread, but I only landed here looking for our previous correspondence here, after wrestling for a day to post on the "Human Energy" wikipage to keep it from "prompt deletion."  I'm starting to wonder if this site is like the Tower of Babel - it seems easier to start a new thread than to find existing similar, active ones.
     

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Login with Facebook Sign In with Google Sign In with OpenID Sign In with Twitter

In this Discussion

Loading