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THE protests #occupywallstreet
  • Vote Up0Vote Down
    gregor
     
    October 2011
    I just thought I'd mention this because there are many veins running through the basis behind this protest that are shared by OSE  and the philosophy behind it. And because there is an intentional media near-blackout on it. What do you all think of it?  I think OSE should announce solidarity on their blog.  Anyone who has a podium should, as it helps encourage others when little else does.

    I previously mentioned on this forum that I believe that while capitalism is only one organizational model and tool among many.  The reason it gets so much attention is that the other methods have for whatever reason not been developed or researched nearly much, and don't have as much experience poured into them.  Like a technology such as internal combustion engines, there are plenty of other ways some better in many ways.

    I know protesting seems pointless, but first of all there are a lot of examples of it working throughout history, especially WRT leading to more direct action and waking people up to the issues involved.  Secondly there is a rational basis for it to work, as explained for instance by Martin Luther King: the main purpose of the protest per se in terms of pressuring the gov is to create a crisis for the government which they cannot make go away except by addressing the problems.

    Also, while people are deriding the protesters as foolish or failing to understand the way things work, it could not be more clear that it is the complete opposite.  They have a very interesting system going on in Zuccotti park and the comments on the forums on occupywallstreet.gov look like they are fairly well informed.

    Noam Chomsky has some intersting things to say about other organizational models btw: http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1317735903_chomsky_explains_libe.html . (especially the 8th one down, the extra wide one)

    I would join in for sure if I was in NYC except that I'm Canadian... but make no mistake,the problems are just as bad here, in fact even worse in many ways.  One of the main reasons the economy has not melted down as badly here is that people *cannot* walk away from a mortgage, you are indentured for life no matter how much you cannot afford to pay anymore IIRC.  I have no statistics but the public debate is much poorer here, and I would bet say the number of political blogs per capita is a fraction of what it is in the states.
     
  • 7 Comments sorted by
  • I don't think OSE should get involved. It would be confusing as to which message from the folks at Occupy Wall street is being endorsed.

    While I think it's great someone is throwing a wrench into the leviathan, personally, I don't agree with a bunch of the positions (all of the socialist ones) put out by some people in the movement. While with some people I do agree. Hence the possible confusion.

    OSE should be apolitical beyond the core values and I haven't seen socialism being one of them. I see OSE being closer to Agorism than anything else: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism
     
  • Vote Up0Vote Down
    mjnmjn
     
    October 2011
    BTW, the link should be http://occupywallst.org.

     
  • Here is the old video of Marcin about our goal being about abundance economics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpGyDjvTqaQ.
     
  • Vote Up0Vote Down
    MetzMetz
     
    October 2011
    The occupy Wall street organizers are all about forced government collectivism.  This is the opposite of the individual empowerment mission of OSE. 

    OSE is even more vital now because there are a great many people who want to destroy everything in order to bring about a one world government which in the model of the EU has a unelected leadership.

    think local, act local. 

    For a good perspective to the OSE mission you can read the book 'Freedom TM' and 'Deamon' by Daniel Suarez.  In it a alternate economy is described that uses many of the tools and goals that the OSE project is working towards. 

    Ultra short supply chain economies are the future.  Manufacturing on demand, 3D printing, and open source design products; that one can download online in a voluntary collaborative manner.

    The Difference between the Wall Street people is simply they want involuntary collectivism with the group greater than the individual - versus our goals of voluntary collaboration.


    I put my money where my mouth is.  That is why I am supporting OSE. 





     
  • Vote Up0Vote Down
    MetzMetz
     
    October 2011
    re Jiff:  Abundance in economics is the goal- I agree wholeheartedly.  Wealth is infinite, however what can be created can be destroyed. 

    This is contrary to the dialectic socialism philosophy that wealth is finite and needs to be distributed equally. 

    To put it another way, if you build a CEB press from $2000 dollars capital that you earned working from Starbucks;  You then make 100,000 bricks from soil on your family farm and make $50,000 profit. 

    You did not steal that money, you created it using soil, and your labor.  that was $50,000 of wealth created.
     
  • RE: re Jiff: Abundance in economics is the goal- I agree wholeheartedly. Wealth is infinite, however what can be created can be destroyed.

    This is contrary to the dialectic socialism philosophy that wealth is finite and needs to be distributed equally.

    To put it another way, if you build a CEB press from $2000 dollars capital that you earned working from Starbucks; You then make 100,000 bricks from soil on your family farm and make $50,000 profit.

    You did not steal that money, you created it using soil, and your labor. that was $50,000 of wealth created.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think we need to get away from thinking in these monetized terms altogether and realize that money has no intrinsic worth or value. and is in fact what is trapping us in this Debt Based Control System that we call Industrial Civilization. The only real Value is Survival Value. Economics is a Religion; 100% Faith Based, not a science and not valid mathematics either.

    Check out these blog entries to understand more where I'm coming from with this:

    http://www.culturequake.org/Culturequake/Blog/Entries/2011/5/25_The_Matrix,_Reality.html

    http://storiesofcreativeecology.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/nature-economics-and-the-free-life/



    Cheers, Stormcrow
     
  • @metz
    "... there are a great many people who want to destroy everything in order to bring about a one world government which in the model of the EU has a unelected leadership."
    ~just so you know that is a conspiracy theory.

    Wall Streeters have Corporate welfare and we "pay" for it.

    "The occupy Wall street organizers are all about forced government collectivism. " Evidence otherwise you are full of it.

    "As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.
    As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

    They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
    They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
    They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one's skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
    They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
    They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.
    They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
    They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
    They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
    They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
    They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
    They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
    They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
    They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
    They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
    They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.
    They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
    They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.
    They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
    They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
    They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
    They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
    They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
    They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. *
    To the people of the world,
    We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.
    Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.
    To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

    Join us and make your voices heard!"

    tl;DR


     

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