Open Source Ecology Forums

gregor

There is a very large fraction of the population in our own countries living in the city in very harsh and hopeless circumstances. Very unhealthy food, stressful circumstances with lack of sleep due to noise and low quality accommodations, poor ventilation, environmental toxins, no health care, poor educational opportunities, and predatory behavior on the part of the wealthy taking anything else that's left over (ex: landlords, predatory lending, hidden regressive taxes). If it matters, you name it and it's lacking. That's what poverty is.

I hope I don't need to provide any references for this.

Why not move to a rural area, where at least some of these problems like the housing issues would be solved? Because it would be out of the pot and into the fire. There are no jobs, no schools, no food, unless you can afford transport and/or know how to do it. And it's impossible anyway because it takes capital - a lot of capital.

The ~200 strong communities based around the equipment being developed here could solve this almost overnight, as it would be a *scalable* way to earn a good living in a rural area with no prior skills and very low monthly bills, leaving the needed surplus to buy medical care and anything else not available (yet, in this version) in the community. Existing communities could take people in for free, you get a couple of months of training and a little plot of land and in a couple of months you'll have a nice CEB house in a decent setting, plenty of fresh, healthy food, all the basics are there. The others in the community plus the internet provide education.

And it doesn't take any real capital either - people can practically walk out of the city and improve their lives overnight. Plus the proliferation of such communities would be exponential in rate, so it's not like some little half assed charity program where there isn't actually enough room for anyone.

This could also mean there are a large number of people who would snap up the opportunity to join such a community - growth of such communities could be explosive after the first one is produced.

These times, they are a changin'.

---------------
Thank you for tuning into this episode of Why We Should Take GVCS Dev Seriously, Even Seriously Enough To Accept Constructive Criticism And To Regard Communication With Other Contributors As Something More Serious Than Entertainment.

Perhaps this should be a regular feature.

DavidIAm

YES. :)

This is going to require more than just technology, it will also require community structure and development - it will simply not work to pull somebody out of urban poor lifestyle and place them in a small community - the entire life and pattern and most importantly *mental mindset* of living in the city is fundamentally different than contributing as a soon-to-be valuable member of a small community.

This is not easy. It requires people who have intent and interest in changing themselves and their behavior in order to find a better life.

Because if they're really only interested in what they do when they're not 'at work' - as in watching TV, hanging out, getting high, going to movies, playing video games, all that kind of urban stuff - they're not going to be the sort of people who are actually valuable to such a community. You need people who are willing to rethink themselves, their behavior, their motivations from the base level. Not that the existing members are not willing to help them do so, and remind them, mentor them - but there has to be the intent on the part of the new member that they are going to change so that they have a better life here.

And therein is the rub. Trying to get somebody out of the urban victim of circumstances mindset, and into the I am responsible for my own attitude and behavior? Not Easy even when they WANT to, impossible when they don't.

Yes, its a solution for the poor, but its going to be hard to show them the way - because we (or I at least) don't know the way already. I need to learn to live in a community too, with people we may not particularly like, possibly without elements of freedom we may have had previously, without resentment to the fact.

gregor

I must politely but firmly disagree entirely with that, David. People in these circumstances often work very hard indeed, harder than someone n the middle class, and are well aware of their plight and have a high desire to solve it.

Yes, there may be a few hopeless ones, but they will be filtered out automatically as they would I think be unlikely to take the initiative to join such a community.

Also, just in case there is a misunderstanding, I didn't mean to imply at all that it was a "solution for the poor\", but that this is one of many benefits. These communities will be probably populated by people from the middle class at first, mostly since they have the capital, but as time goes on people in harder circumstances will notice, apply to join and there will be no reason to turn them away as they are well capable of contributing as well as anyone under these conditions.

DavidIAm

All I'm really trying to say is this is not easy, for social reasons, not technological. If due to thoughtlessness on that regard the communities repeatedly explode socially (as past intentional communities have!) they will get a bad reputation, people will fear joining them regardless of the benefits.

Part of the information we need to collect on OSE 'how to build a civilization' includes 'how to build a socialization'. You see?

ARGHaynes

I have the burden of disagreeing with each of the postings above this one.

I agree that for motivated individuals, a well managed organization implementing the ideas put forth OSE could provide a unique and powerful opportunity. However, there is no reason that the majority of the ideas could not be implemented in the abandoned land in the city. As a result of experience with the poor urban population of both Akron and Cleveland, Ohio, cities that sit in the heart of the rust-belt and have had their names listed on such infamous lists as "Top Ten Most Dangerous Cities in America" and "Top 100 Murder Cities in USA", I feel I am well positioned to argue that the complex issue affecting cities is a classic catch-22. Urban poor are undereducated so they lack opportunities, they lack opportunities so they are undereducated. However, more critically, there is a distinct attitude, which is equally prevalent among rural poor, it is not an issue isolated to cities, in which education is not valued.

I would like to deal with a quote from each posting.

First:

There is a very large fraction of the population in our own countries living in the city in very harsh and hopeless circumstances. Very unhealthy food, stressful circumstances with lack of sleep due to noise and low quality accommodations, poor ventilation, environmental toxins, no health care, poor educational opportunities, and predatory behavior on the part of the wealthy taking anything else that's left over (ex: landlords, predatory lending, hidden regressive taxes). If it matters, you name it and it's lacking. That's what poverty is.

Poverty is not just material. Having the government pay for your healthcare, give you a house and pay for your food while churches and charities give you further handouts solves the basic material needs. I have taught many children without any employed family members that are better fed and better dressed than I am. The majority of issues I observed seemed to stem from a sense of entitlement and a refusal to work, not a lack of opportunity.

Second:

Because if they're really only interested in what they do when they're not 'at work' - as in watching TV, hanging out, getting high, going to movies, playing video games, all that kind of urban stuff - they're not going to be the sort of people who are actually valuable to such a community.

I live in the country, I hang out with my friends and if I could afford it, I would go to the movies. I have played video games and both my neighbors own TVs. Just the other day, in the midst of grain fields, I smelled pot. None of the things on this list are exclusive to the urban environment, creating lists like this seems bigoted.

VelaCreations

One of the biggest obstacles to using the GVCS in poverty areas is cost. I live in an extremely poor area (average DAILY wage is $15). There is absolutely no way our village would have the capital to invest in the GVCS. The basic needs are not or just barely being met. $5,000 for a tractor or a machine for building homes is just completely out of the question. Most folks have basic housing consisting of adobe walls and a metal or dirt roof. Plowing is done with donkeys or horses.

So, for truly poor areas, meeting the primary needs is the first goal. Once those needs are met, certain "Luxuries" like better housing, machinery can be examined.

Jason

I don't think there would be any immediate benefit for the extremely poor areas such as what VelaCreations speaks of. But there would be benefit via the domino effect. A larger/richer community that doesn't rely on the State and big companies for employment will employ more and produce more. The smaller neighboring community will then have access to basic tools and food, in exchange for labor in the larger community. Eventually the smaller community will get their own means of production, and employ themselves and the neighboring community, which might be the one that VelaCreations speaks of. So it will indeed help these people, but only after a period of time.

The benefit is that it circumvents the current pyramid-like system of wealth creation. People must currently work for large companies to get money. This money circulates in the community and supports small businesses. Companies get money either from government spending (public debt) or consumerism (private debt).

Dawg

Keeping the money (power) local is key to starting the big changover. As long as the money is at corporate headquarters and not in your hands or your neighbors hands nothing will change for very long.

@Jason - I agree that we need to look at the spin offs. The very poor, especially in developing countries, are so removed from our fight that I really wonder what can be done in the short run. There are plenty of "quality of life poor" in our back yards that need to feel inspired about life. Those inspired new community types will be in a better position to help the very poor.

First step, work within our present first world structure to find home grown solutions. Then start thinking about sharing our infrastructure with the very poor.

This is not to say that we have no connection to these people now. Lets face it, many of us here are now wage slaves ourselves. We live in nice surroundings with paved streets and so on, but we live cheque to cheque. The burden of society is on our shoulders to the point where we can't fly anymore. Too bogged down to see the big picture.

We need to change this.

The Dawg
osrliving.com

DavidIAm

@ARGHaynes - Uh, okay, bad phrasing. How about: if the top priority in your life is to watch tv, hang out, get high, go to movies, play video games, all that kind of *modern amusement and escapism* stuff, they're not going to be the sort of people who are actually valuable to such a community.

mjn

Personally, I don't think much good will come of waving the magic OSE wand at Akron, Cleavland, or Detroit (etc). Motivation, buy-in, and the will to better yourself has to be part of the equation.

I think a better target for early OSE villages would be twenty-somethings: people who are just getting out of college, or perhaps have bounced around a bit while not going to college. This generation faces challenges that none of the previous generations ever faced: drastic climate changes, peak oil, a constantly unstable economic system, etc. These people have the desire to create a good life for themselves, but they lack the "boost" that earlier generations got (including my own) at the start of their adult lives.

Suppose we put out a "call to action" to these people (and in a sense, we already have). Let's invite them to come and build a post-scarcity, village-sized community with decent living, a safe place to grow and raise a family, enough time to personally develop yourself through learning and education, etc. We create a core group of people interested in creating a new OSE community and we offer them training, tools, and access to resources. We help gather enough money to fund the purchase of land somewhere to establish the new community. We work with them long enough to help them create the social structures needed to make such a community a success. We come down and help them build the initial houses, work spaces, and establish the basic needs (food, power, water, etc.) of the new village. Then we have a big party and wish them bon voyage.

So who is the "we" in the above? To my mind, it's not a hypothetical WE at all. It consists of OSE as a driving organization and the collection of OSE communities developed to date. I would like to see a "Karmic Debt" be communicated to newly established OSE communities: help build three more. If each OSE community was expected to help build just three more, we would have a 3X growth factor (which allows for some community failure and other problems). I could see some communities (Factor e Farm, for example) always wanting to be involved with helping any new community get established and built. I could also seem some new communities doing the minimum to fulfill their debt and then moving on with another focus (quality of life improvements, for example).

The point I'm making here is that it may be possible to create a kind of "OSE village network" that exists to help create new villages. The GVCS tools are designed to replicable - they just need feedstocks and labor to make new ones. We are at the very, very earliest point of that future vision and we are in a position to help shape how it plays out. Social engineering, as ARGHaynes points out above, is much more difficult that designing and making a new widget. It is a delicate thing and must be done with patience and compassion - these are people's LIVES we are talking about, after all.

FWIW, Mark Norton

ARGHaynes

I will state rather emphatically that if a group of people got together to seriously set out to construct (or train, equip, etc) a community I would probably be there. All the more so if it was constructed of highly motivated individuals, rather than a bunch of people that just happened to be there.

One of the difficulties of my generation is that we believed the lie that if we did well in school, then went to college and did well there too, that we would get a stable and enjoyable job. So here I am with a piece of paper with some Latin on it and a pile of loans... Yippie American Dream.

mjn

You are not alone, by a long shot. Both of my children (24 and 27) are struggling. They seem to be caught up in that "American Dream" myth you mention. I have tried to show them that alternatives exist, but both are unwilling to listen (or try). They both want the life I gave them when they grew up: comfortable, suburban lifestyle including house, car, toys, etc. While my wife and I have moved on, they have not, and I fear that they lifestyle they want is not unattainable - via the traditional path, at any rate.

hendriksonrichard

mjn said: "Personally, I don't think much good will come of waving the magic OSE wand at Akron, Cleavland, or Detroit (etc). Motivation, buy-in, and the will to better yourself has to be part of the equation.

I think a better target for early OSE villages would be twenty-somethings: people who are just getting out of college, or perhaps have bounced around a bit while not going to college. This generation faces challenges that none of the previous generations ever faced: drastic climate changes, peak oil, a constantly unstable economic system, etc. These people have the desire to create a good life for themselves, but they lack the "boost" that earlier generations got (including my own) at the start of their adult lives.

Suppose we put out a "call to action" to these people (and in a sense, we already have). Let's invite them to come and build a post-scarcity, village-sized community with decent living, a safe place to grow and raise a family, enough time to personally develop yourself through learning and education, etc. We create a core group of people interested in creating a new OSE community and we offer them training, tools, and access to resources. We help gather enough money to fund the purchase of land somewhere to establish the new community. We work with them long enough to help them create the social structures needed to make such a community a success. We come down and help them build the initial houses, work spaces, and establish the basic needs (food, power, water, etc.) of the new village. Then we have a big party and wish them bon voyage.

So who is the "we" in the above? To my mind, it's not a hypothetical WE at all. It consists of OSE as a driving organization and the collection of OSE communities developed to date. I would like to see a "Karmic Debt" be communicated to newly established OSE communities: help build three more. If each OSE community was expected to help build just three more, we would have a 3X growth factor (which allows for some community failure and other problems). I could see some communities (Factor e Farm, for example) always wanting to be involved with helping any new community get established and built. I could also seem some new communities doing the minimum to fulfill their debt and then moving on with another focus (quality of life improvements, for example).

The point I'm making here is that it may be possible to create a kind of "OSE village network" that exists to help create new villages. The GVCS tools are designed to replicable - they just need feedstocks and labor to make new ones. We are at the very, very earliest point of that future vision and we are in a position to help shape how it plays out. Social engineering, as ARGHaynes points out above, is much more difficult that designing and making a new widget. It is a delicate thing and must be done with patience and compassion - these are people's LIVES we are talking about, after all. "

@mjn: I think that an idea of a "karmic debt" is brilliant. I've come up with an idea on how to help new communities get established and built. In order for this idea to work the first community must consist of individuals who are generous, because they would be the ones to start the cycle of "karmic debt". The first people to build and establish a community would buy land and establish a Community Land Trust. Then they would put their money together to buy the raw materials to build the industrial machines needed to satisfy the basic needs of life.Then they would each contribute an equal amount of time building the machines, and then do the same when taking care of the needs(building homes, installing sustainable electricity etc.).

Some of these people can also choose to live together in one home until another home is built. After the basics are taken care of then they would use the industrial machines to replicate those same industrial machines. They would then give those industrial machines to a group who wants to build and establish a community of their own. That's how one community can help other communities get established. This group of people who want to establish a community of their own would then repeat these steps, except that they would be given the industrial machines in the beginning. They would also pay a "karmic debt" by building another set of industrial machines and giving them to another group. I think that this would even allow some poor people to put in only money to buy land and build the rest.

mjn

@hendriksonrichard
> In
order for this idea to work the first community must consist of
individuals who are generous, because they would be the ones to start
the cycle of "karmic debt".

It's quite likely that Factor e Farm will build the equipment (etc) for the first OSE village. Marcin has talked about this for some time now. Plans are on the drawing board to buy a couple hundred acres in Missouri and create the first US OSE Village. Meanwhile, folks in Europe are thinking of doing something similar. For this to work, though, we need the GVCS-50 to be specified and prototyped (at least once). Momentum is gathering, but a huge amount needs to be done. OSE also needs to grow as an organization, too. Everything takes time (and money).

- Mark

Sweeney

@Mark,

I think you are spot on. This will be most likely to gain a foothold amongst the young and relatively educated at first. I'll be 25 in September and this is the most inspiring project i've ever come across. As ARGHaynes intimated...there are quite a few of us young people who are ready to move on. The way I see it..the only thing I would have to leave behind is Indentured Servitude to the State and my Corporate employer. I believe other demographics will follow.

@ARGHaynes,

I know where you're coming from.

Howard_V_Agnew

I think our nation has an unhealthy attitude toward mental health problems. I do not think it is healthy to blame a person for being stuck in a mental/emotional rut because stressing out from wages that aren't paying bills, not being able to take care of themselves well to say nothing of their loved ones.

I think there's opportunity with OSE for some stress to be relieved from some of that. Its not a magic cure-all, but when the dream is reality, a person could work for a living instead of a wage, take care of themselves and 199 comrades instead of taking care of an already wealthy CEO until they decide to dispose of you.

I've struggled with depression and anxiety my entire life; I was "pre-diagnosed" with depression as 5. I've had better periods ... the best period of my life was the only time I've had a real sense of value in myself, when I started taking care of a dog who had been abused. She was horribly depressed, wouldn't eat and was terrified of everyone. After just a couple weeks with me, though, spending time with her and being gentle with her, she started wagging her tail a bit more easily each day. Tending to her did not feel choresome, the way commuting to work and putting up with the shenanigans of two girl-chasing Texan drunk bosses I had at the time did. I've had good times with lovers, but bringing happiness to that one dog is the strongest sense I have ever had of value in myself, the only situation that eased my own depression.

I think a lot of people are depressed by the same feelings I have -- even when I do have a job, I feel like I'm begging for charity with every paycheck I deposit. I feel I am made to feel worthless and disposable. If I don't measure up to some limited meters of productivity, like how fast I slam customers off the phone in a technical support call center (ugh, five years in call center work), beancounters hiding away in the office get rid of me. Now, don't get me wrong ... there's a lot that well-designed spreadsheets can help manage and I think doing so could help the OSE projects get a firm grasp on how to make the dream a reality, one prototyped machine at a time, but corporations tend to use limited meters and when it comes to, say, an employee helping out a customer, how fast they are able to get the customer off the phone is not a reliable meter for how well that employee is treating your customers nor how satisfied those customers feel. It definitely kills an employee's sense of value in actually doing a good job and instead drives an unhealthy competition ('dude, I did a thousand calls yesterday, I rock!') between employees. I have seen similar veins in just about every business I have been employed with, from a lawn service outfit ('we need to weed this garden? *pluck* one weed weeded, therefore weeding is done!') to Frito-Lay the snack chip company in maintaining stock in retail grocery clients ('stales on the rise? the solution is to hide the stales somewhere in the client store or just leave them on the shelf so unsuspecting customers will buy them until, maybe, next quarter...'). Anyone who goes through a bit of that I think would be painfully trained to not care or think about actually making constructive contributions ... and I think OSE could help them unwind from such unhealthy powers-that-be-induced-constrictions.

I'm no psychologist, and could not take an oath to swear this is the truth ... but I would be very surprised if, someday, if OSE communities are everywhere, that the OSE community members would tend to have lower depression, anxiety and other mental health problems after joining OSE from urban stress than they did before.

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