Sounds interesting.  I remember you mentioned this but did not mention the URL at the time and I could not find the site.  I think there will definitely need to be a number of these types or organizations in order to make progress on open hardware at a reasonable pace.  As I mentioned in the "what would v2.0..." thread, I don't think dividing the contributor base is a problem at this stage.

@ mjn - I'm still wrestling with what forum to use and going through my hosting choices.  One thing I really want is inline file (image) hosting.  I have limited knowledge of how to do this but would consider myself a savvy computer user.  My first choice for hosting is a local guy who is handling my static pages at the moment.  He's always there to answer questions and I don't remember EVER being down without some sort of notice.  But he's not cheap either....:)

If I knew more about this I would put everything up on a more mainstream server to save money.  But I will probably need the support at first till I get my sea legs.  Everyone says the cheaper sites are cheap because you're basically on your own.  Don't even try to get help.

As for .com, it is the most well known suffix is all.  No, not going commercial per se.  Just a grass roots movement trying to "ring the bell" a little bit differently than some others.

@ gregor - I agree that there will need to be a variety of small groups within the movement to keep it vibrant.  For me this is all about keeping life more local.  A local "chapter" has the ability to put more feet on the ground.  Those feet can search for opportunities that would not normally be available.  Face to face is a stronger way to form communities anyway.

So maybe a figurehead group like OSE can serve the function of the poster child while the other smaller groups generate the critical mass needed to see this all through. 



Someone made mention a while back about possibly competing with OSE (Mark?).  That again is a purely corporate, profiteering way of looking at all this.  In a pure Open Source system, there shouldn't really be any competition.  Not significantly anyway.  We're all on the same path and in the end, we're giving away everything we do.  Heck, someone please do me a favor and make my group obsolete as soon as possible....:)

Personally, I have no ego to stroke here or any visions of grandeur.  There's an important job to be done, so lets get it done.

The Dawg

@ mjn - Ok Mark, osrliving.org it is.  It had not occurred to me that it might be significant.  Thank you.

As for the software.  I just want to make sure it will do the job and won't be a bitch to administer.  I have several forums I'm on that I like.  So I'm looking into them first.  Web Wiz is one of them.  Some have suggested phpBB also.

I'm aiming to implement this weekend or early in the week.  Then a few days of Forum programming and I'm off to the races.

The plan is to form a core group and together we will decide on the finer details.  A fellow named Mike Reynolds has been developing his earth berm building techniques for 40 years now in New Mexico.  He has by far the most sophisticated, well designed homes of this sort in the world.  They have a small village full of "Earthships" near Taos New Mexico.  Have a look:

http://earthship.org/

I believe in order to reach this level of freedom I speak about, we will need to live in this sort of home.  These homes are totally off the grid.  No utility bills.  I have personally spoken to several folks that live in this sort of home and they say it's very comfortable.

Combine Earthships with Open Source tools and modern eco friendly food growing practices and you are well on your way to the goals I talk about.

I know very little about farming.  But what I have experienced when farming is a ton of manual labor.  There has got to be a better way.  Yes there will always be hand work involved, but with the many different technologies available to us today I'm sure we can grown food more easily.  Again, to free up time to just be.

This is my plan anyway.....:)

The agro circle idea seems promising as a first project BTW.

The Dawg

@dawg
I've seen the earthships website before.  Quite impressive, I agree.

>  I know very little about farming.  But what I have experienced when
farming is a ton of manual labor.

While I am no expert, I do consider myself to be a farmer.  My wife and I are about 50% self-sufficient in vegetable production, maybe more.  We'd do better this year, but building our house is taking up a lot of time.  Besides, the house figures into our farming strategies for the future.  This is our third year working Phase 3 Farm.  Before that, I had vegetable gardens off and on for 25 years.  Further, my wife has experience in poultry and other meat animals.  That said, farming is a lot of work.  We knew that going into it.  We actually embrace the labor as being good for us - body and soul.

Consider today.  A wind storm blew down a large limb in my yard.  I spent 3 hours cutting it up and hauling it to a spot where it can dry and be used as firewood.  Meanwhile, my wife had started the process of canning our cucumber crop as pickles for the coming year.  I joined her after lunch.  Together, we put about eight hours into putting up 10 quarts of pickles.  Surely there is a better way, you ask.  Indeed.  Pickles are $3.50 a quart at the local supermarket - we could just buy them there.

So my 10 quarts are worth $35.  Divided that by eight hours of labor and we are working for $4.00 an hour or so.  Why do we bother?  Well, there are reasons.  First of all, this is MY recipe and this makes pickles the way I like them.  Second, the bulk of the ingredients that go into this effort were grown by me, so I know they are wholesome and organic.  Finally, there is a huge sense of satisfaction at the end, seeing those jars all lined up and knowing that I'll be enjoying them for months and months to come.  It's worth it - to me.

This is intended to be a case in point, Damien.  There are endless farm tasks that are similar.  So how would we automate or speed up the process of making pickles?  Yes, you guessed it!  The amazing, OSE Open Source Pickle Maker (an essential part of any post-scarcity community that wants pickles).  We'll need to start a project on it, naturally.  It will require some serious internet research - probably into industrial pickle production techniques.  There are machines that clean and sterilize jars for pressure canning - surely we could make one of those!  Slicing is easy, some sort of food processor on a much larger (and modular) scale.  Hoppers for spices and - viola! - the Open Source Pickelator!

Truthfully, I'm just as happy to cut my cukes by hand.  If I want spears instead of slices, I just cut them lengthwise rather than re-configuring the Pickelator.  Today was a hot, sweaty day and it was tough to spend it slaving over a hot stove, but we have plans to improve that as part of the new house.  It has a summer kitchen planned that is partially outdoors making mass cooking projects a bit easier to endure.

Now to be fair, if I were part of an earthship community, or an OSE village, or even an eco-village, I could make pickeling a community project.  This is often done.  Groups come together to can on an an assembly line basis that can really speed things up.  It's more fun, too.  I figure we'll try that in the future since we know other canners in the area.

I'm always on the look out for real labor saving devices, a new way to process things, tricks to save time or improve quality, etc.  OTOH, I'm not afraid to work for my daily pickle.

- Mark

@dawg
>It is worth while for these reasons and even more I think.

Yes, there are more reasons, but the few given suffice.  I wouldn't run on so long that @ARGHaynes can't read the post.  :)

> It makes you more in control of your own destiny if nothing else.

Yes, being in control is important to us.  We are quite aware of the problems we face in the near term future:  peak oil driving up the costs of food, global warming changing the ecological landscape, etc.

>  What about plug and play closed loops?

We do some of this now.  We compost:  both the traditional way and vermiculture.  We don't have animals yet - they are coming in the next couple of years.  Once they are in place, some of the loops will start to close.  Our farm is based on permaculture principles, we is very much about closed loops, co-planting guilds, thoughtful design of the landscape, minimizing waste, etc.

>  A computerized greenhouse

Yes, this would be a good thing to add, since it is a closed environment.  The sensors are fairly simple and the effectors (heat and water) are straightforward to build. 

I'll give you another thing I'd like to have on my farm:  an open source arduino based weather station.  A device that monitors temperature, humidity and rainfall, and wind direction and speed.  Since the arduino can be configured to contain a web server (Apache), I'd like the station to compile running statistics available as both raw data and charts created on-the-fly.  Thus, I could bring up the average daily temperature for the past several weeks on my base computer.

>  The Rabbits eat the garden scraps.

It's easy to describe closed loops in simplistic terms, but often they are more complex once you drill down a bit.  Yes, rabbits will eat garden scraps, but such scraps are not available in a constant flow.  Therefore you need a stored rabbit feed - especially for the winter months.  Such feed is usually grain of some form, which can be grown, but you need the space and special equipment needed to harvest and process it (either a mini combine or a bar mower, thresher, and winnower).

>  Their poop feeds the worms.

Worms are not as efficient at breakdown waste as you might think.  They work slowly, so you need a fairly large worm bin to process even a normal amount of waste.  Besides, rabbit droppings are good manure all on their own.

>  The worms nourish the soil and feed the chickens.

A small flock of chickens could wipe out a worm bin fairly quickly.  Besides, the worms in the bin are usually specialized (Red Wigglers) so why waste them on chickens?

>  The rich soil makes the garden grow faster and insures quality food
production.

True and there are some interesting possibilities for labor saving in this part:  automatically turning composters, screening compost to separate the good stuff from the uncomposed, a means to haul it to the fields, a spreader, etc.  OSE has some of this process covered, but not all.

>  We eat the produce and eggs and maybe even the worms.

Again, the problem of storage comes up here.  Putting up food is a whole set of skills onto itself.  Currently, we practice:  drying, freezing, canning, pickling, and salting.  Next year, we plan on trying lacto-fermentation (which is how sauerkraut is made).  Also the question of what produce to plant - much needs to be considered about climate, soil needs, and a balanced diet (discounting profitability - we don't sell our food, so that doesn't matter to us).  As for eating the worms, let's say we use them for fishing instead, eh?  That won't deplete the worm bin and Bass love 'em.  Also eggshells are an interesting material.  Ground up, they can be used an calcium supply for laying hens (strange to think, but commonly practiced).  We also use it to control slugs in the garden, because they don't like sliding over eggshells.  This is a bit more organic than diatomaceous earth.

>  Oh and chickens are good eat'in also.


Chickens will be our first livestock, if you discount the worms.  Larger livestock can considerably improved the loops adding complexity and diversity.   A pig can be used to clear the land and makes very fine eating.  Goats will also clear land and give milk that many enjoy (thought not us).  Finally, even a single cow adds considerable value to the closed farming loop in terms of milk and meat (from offspring), but a cow also has significant requirements in terms of feed, bedding, space, and care (milking twice a day).

>  I would love to see some pictures of your activities.

 

Above, a strawberry cold frame and pea trellis - both this year.

>  Do you have a blog or some such thing?



Actually, I do.  I have a very complete web site with blogs running back a few years, garden plans, notes on tools, etc.  However, it is a closed Google Group.  It is purely for our own, private use.  Selfish perhaps, but it also contains a lot of personal information that we'd rather not share with the entire world.  Call me old fashioned, but privacy still matters.

- Mark

@mjn - Man, you two are awesome.  You are well on your way.

I'm sure we could come up with all sorts of relatively simple tools that help with the basics and will benefit from some modern technology.

I was reading your response about the rabbit poop and thought about a roving hutch.  Much like you could water the soil using a micro controller, you could nourish the soil the same way by moving the rabbits around the field.  It would have to be a very well made hutch mind you in order to protect our fuzzy critters while they cruise about the yard.  I'm imagining a slow programmed progression that might only move an inch or two a day.  In the right situation, this could be useful.  Especially if you had lots of critters.

BTW.  I should be programming the forum tomorrow.  It will be up by the weekend.

The Dawg

@dawg
The idea of a roving hutch is similar to the idea of a chicken tractor - which has been around for quite some time.  Both suffer from a similar problem:  the poop generally doesn't go where it is really needed.  Probably the best you could do would be to put it on a fallow field and move it around for a season - assuming you had such a field.  Rabbit droppings have the advantage that they can be used directly as fertilizer (no composting necessary).  As such, it might be better to design a container system that sits under the hut that allows the useful remains to be easily moved to garden plots for use.

- Mark

Dawg, best of luck with your new group. One thing I am curious about, when you say OSE has "unrealistic 'space colony' goals", which goals specifically do you mean?

It may be that you struggle a bit with the starting premise of OSE:  developing the technology basis that would enable a small community to be largely self-sufficient, which includes developing, expanding, or modifying it's own manufacturing capability.  There's nothing wrong with either accepting or rejecting that premise.  Your personal vision is more focused on resilient living - which is also a premise (once fully defined) that can be accepted or rejected.  Furthermore you are taking steps to move it forward, which is laudable.

If, however, you accept the OSE premise, it leads to some challenging problems:

Where do raw materials come from?
How are they processed into useful forms?

Thinking about it, there are two obvious answers to the first question:  on-site natural resources and the waste stream of other communities (or cities).  Natural resources will vary, naturally, but things like Kaolin (alumina clay) is nearly everywhere, world wide.  As such, it is logic to then ask how can I extract aluminum from clay, and hence the Aluminum Extractor GVCS project.  Note that even aluminum is not the end of the matter.  While useful for many things, it lacks the strength of steel.  For steel, we turn to the waste stream (iron ore being largely mined out).  Steel and iron are broadly available either free or at very low cost.  While some of this waste steam can be directly re-purposed or fabricated into useful things, there is also a need to melt it down and cast it.  For that, an Induction Furnace (or similar) is needed.  Regardless of how feasible you think the development of an induction furnace is, the need for it is a logical conclusion.

Processing materials into useful forms requires tools (almost the very definition of a tool).  However, all tools require energy as an input.  Therein lies the rub.  The need for energy is a requirement for every single one of the GVCS-50.  As such, energy producing technology is included in the GVCS-50.  At a village scale, the generation of power from it's own resources is a limited proposition.  It can come from the sun, indirectly from the sun (wind, water, biomass), and a few others (geo-thermal).  Exploration of these energy sources leads directly to some of the GVCS technologies:  solar concentrator, alternator/generator, wind turbine, steam generator, etc.

>  Where is the massive amount of power going to come from?
Personally, I think it will come from a blend of energy sourses:  a solar power installation, a bio-mass burner, wind and water turbines, etc.  Local conditions and resources will determine what is feasible.  Still, something like an induction furnace requires quite a bit of energy to run it.  Is it feasible to generate enough power for a small village to support an induction furnace?  Maybe, maybe not.  If it was feasible, however, it would open up many interesting opportunities.  In the early 80's, the Australian National Energy Grid designed and built a solar power station for the town of White Cliffs, NSW.  White Cliffs, as a community, was a bit larger than the envisioned OSE villages, but it is an interesting example in that it included factories that processed the opals mined nearby (ie, heavy machinery).  The White Cliffs solar power station was capable of powering an induction furnace.  See http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Steam_Engine_Design/White_Cliffs and http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Steam_Engine_Design/White_Cliffs_Report

>  I'm referring to a set of priorities that seem to be trying to reinvent
the industrial revolution from scratch in 2 or 3 years.  That's nutty
and misleading.
Well, it's certainly an ambitious goal, no one will deny that, but not misleading, Damien.  The goals have been fairly well articulated.  You may chose to believe that the priorities are wrong, that the goals are unattainable, or that it's just not the right thing to be pursuing, but others disagree.  Why is it wrong for people who believe in Marcin's plan to support him in that effort?  If you want others to respect your views, can't you start by respecting theirs?

You have come to the conclusions that the goals of OSE, as set down by Marcin, can't be attained or are infeasible for small communities.  Somehow, on the basis of that opinion, you then say it is wrong to pursue it.  That, sir, is a value judgment.  It's neither right nor wrong.  It's just a goal that some people are working towards.  They may fail at it or it may take far long to reach that goal than originally planned, but it doesn't invalidate the goal itself.  Personally, I think that anyone who dares to tackle seemingly impossible things is to be admired - even if they fail in the attempt.  It is what greatness is based on.

- Mark

@gregor

> the attempt to get real practical, economical, material goods production
capacity into the hands of real people as opposed to corporations,
government etc.
Yes, I completely agree with that.  I would expect personal production capability to slowly get better over the years. Some of these things that might not be practical now, might become so on the future.  If not - oh well.

>  if the flexfab facility cannot produce goods that to the users are
cheaper than the market price then the whole thing will be redundant.
Quite true.  Most people really couldn't care less about being truly self-reliant.  If an OSE machine isn't cheaper, better, faster, etc., then it will likely be ignored.  OTOH, cheaper is a relative concept, depending on your location and access to the world market.

>  the whole system can be operated by anyone with relatively little
training, making it truly open, accessible, and owned by the people.

That's a sticky point for some of the OSE machines.  I suspect that some of them will require a fair bit of training to operate, especially safely.  A chainsaw is a pretty cheap these days, but not everyone can buy one and use it safely and efficiently.

>  it is highly unlikely the aluminum will be any cheaper than commodity
aluminum.
Again, it may be a matter of scale.  Perhaps aluminum in small quantities can be produced inexpensively if you trade off time (ie, it takes much longer to make than your typical aluminum refinery).  We won't know until we really dig in and explore the concepts.

>  You still have to pay for the solar collector, and the cost per kWh
still ends up quite high no matter how you work it.
Remains to be seen, eh?  Mirrors are pretty cheap.  Total cost to produce electricity must be calculated, which is something I agree with.  If more expensive, what's the point?

- Mark

@dawg

>  Even if I thought it was feasible now, I would question it's order on the list.
Ah, I think I see your point there.  Personally, I don't believe that the Induction Furnace is the 16th machine to get built.  I don't even think that the machines are listed in any kind of significant order.  I could be wrong, but many of these machines have prerequisites and in the case of the induction furnace that requirement is  VERY powerful source of electrical energy.  Even if the solar concentrator and steam engine get built soon (priorities do seem to shift around), initial prototypes will not be anywhere near close enough to power a furnace.  As such, I think the induction furnace is waaaay down the actual list of things to get built.

>  I am concerned that the Open Source movement could be damaged severely by this sort of thing.
Oh, I wouldn't worry about the Open Source movement as a whole.  If OSE failed, it would be one small blip in the grand scheme of things.  Please take into consideration that thousands of OS projects have failed.  SourceForge is a graveyard of failed projects.  Open Source has had far too many success to die at this point.  Furthermore, OSE has already made significant contributions to the OS movement as a whole.

>  I am curious to hear how far someone like Marcin would have to go with his claims before you would call it misleading?
To my understanding, the only actual claim that Marcin has made (please enlighten me if there are others) is that building the GVCS-50 is possible.  The conditions under which they are built, the degree of completeness, heck - the actual usability of said machines doesn't have any explicit claims.  Specifically (taken from his recent blog post), Marcin's claims are:

1. OSE: A network of farmers, engineers, and supporters.
2. GVCS: 50 industrial machines to build a
small-scale civilization with modern comforts.
3. Design, prototype, and test all 50 by end of year 2012.
4. Not inventing new machines - innovate existing technology and
publish it.
5. Need to build them to determine if this 50 is the right set.
6. Technology set is recursive - machines can make better
machines.
7. Goal: optimize quality of life such that material constraints
simply cease to be the driving force in human relations.

So I guess to be fair, while his claim is that such things can be built, he wants to build them by year-end 2012.  I personally think that it's unlikely to actually build all of them by the end of next year, but that doesn't prevent me from urging Marcin and OSE on.  I would LOVE to be wrong in this opinion.

Your original question was how far out would his claims have to be before I would call it misleading.  Hard to say, really.  Claims are only part of the picture.  For me, actions and results matter more.

>  I think it's misleading to take people's money while suggesting that it is feasible.
Perhaps this is the crux of the matter. You believe it to be infeasible.  I believe it to be possible but unlikely.  Each of us gets to decide, Damien.  Caveat Emptor, after all.  I would agree with you that there is an expectation that Marcin and OSE will use the contributed money in the best possible way, but that is very open to opinion.  Personally, I think that Marcin is doing the best he can with the situation as it exists.  Could it be done better?  Perhaps, but he really is trying and I don't believe that he is mismanaging funds or using them inappropriately.  It's a gamble, you see.  People are putting money down on the table in the hopes that it will pay off for all.  If it doesn't?  They might be out a couple of hundred bucks - which I admit is a lot of money for some people.

>  I wonder how these True Friends would feel when they realize how little thought has gone into some of these ideas.
I am a True Fan, Damien.  I think a great deal of thought has gone into some of these ideas in part because I did some of the thinking, I did the writing, and I did the work.  Others are doing similar things on different projects.  Marcin has been working this idea for eight years.  I am positive that a LOT of thought has gone into it.  Where we differ is on the conclusions drawn from that thinking.

>  I hope it all works out in the end and lots of great things get done.
They why not relax and just let it play out?  I would suggest that OSE is not an "all or nothing" venture with a binary chance of success.  Suppose we build out HALF of the GVCS-50 by the end of 2012 (noting that ten have already been built)?  Would that be a success or failure?  Suppose we get 49 built and NEVER get the induction furnace to work?  So what?  Think of what was learned, the information gathered and documented, and the devices built that can serve as a platform for further improvements.  It's a process, Damien, not just a set of claims or simple goals.

I appreciate your openness and personal honesty, Damien.  You've made your views quite clear and I'm sure that others share some of your concerns.  Meanwhile, there is work to be done - let's get to it.

- Mark

I am genuinely thrilled at the prospect of a skunk-works level process that I could actually do, and would make aluminum from clay, but I don't hold out hope that it will happen prior to 2013-4-5-6+...  That said, I wish them luck on it, but as I have no expertise in that area, I can't likely contribute anything other than best wishes.

I have read and re-read the transparency page on the wiki, and for the life of me, I can't say that I truly understand most of it either, but I am still a True Fan, and even though I paid my donations all up front, in advance, I don't feel like I was cheated, or want my money back.

I really don't have much clue how this organization is being run, but I guess that in the grand scheme of things, I don't have to...  It was only $240, that I can write off as a gamble that may pay off one day with information that may help me to further my own causes.  I've certainly wasted much more than that on other things that have less chance of returning on the investment, and didn't regret them either.  This is not to say that I don't care, but rather than I would probably be better off by searching for value among that which this project has already produced, and go from there.  I probably have already gotten my money's worth on that alone.

Looking at the Google Earth Map of FeF, it looks like the northern 25% or so is still an active soybean field, although there is no way to tell how often that map was updated.  It would seem that FeF is somewhat limited in both lumber potential (few trees per acre), and also in southern exposure, since the property kinda looks like a vertical slice on the map.  This is only relevant in that I have to wonder how much solar power really can be collected & harnessed there, before it becomes too intrusive to the rest of the operations?  If that soybean field is no longer actively farmed, perhaps that area is now available for larger scale solar power experiments.  They probably still need more trees if they are going to be able to produce enough lumber to meet their projected needs, and to the long-term goal of powering the place without fossil fuels, it probably also would make sense to put up a much higher capacity wind generator, though that gets us back to that battery project that hasn't seemed to go very far yet....  Yes, I have different priorities than what is being followed here.

I think that my own goals are probably much more in line with Dawg's, and after I get that more abundant free time, perhaps I'll work on aluminum extraction in my "Man Cave", but I think I need to work toward getting that man cave built, and paid for first, with enough of a cushion to allow me to be able to enjoy it.

BTW, Dawg, I couldn't register on osrliving.org, as I never got the email.

@Jiff64138 - At the moment, Marcin decides what the priorities are and he's not listening.  I would love to get the chance to steer him towards the light.

But yes, the proper way to do this would be to form some sort of a committee.  They would look at all the possibilities and come up with the best way to proceed.  Additionally, a poll of the people involved in the group at large would go a long way to build unity.

The Dawg

Hey I didn't know you had a site, MJN.  It's good, I hope it works out.

 I am personally not too worried about the particular tools of the GVCS.  If you drew the product ecology, it's the flexible fabrication facility that is at the bottom, like the bottom of the food chain.  It is the main wellspring of value here I think.   Although the other tools are quite interesting, theoretically, a high quality, low-cost flexfab facility will enable literally thousands more products for each one of the tools that are currently chosen, many of them far more interesting and useful even to this 200 person village thing.

In other words, the other GVCS tools, as interesting as they are, are only a glimpse of what a flexfab facility can do by getting powerful modern manufacturing capability into the hands of real people for the first time in history.  The flexfab it is also the biggest if.  The flexfab facility is a research project basically - you can make one of sorts, as the one at the Center for bits and atoms showed (but it cost $1.4 million and there are still a lot of things you cannot make with it, even normal things like a decent bicycle).  But that the sort and variety of things you can make with it economically, and the cost of it, can be in the makes-a-real-difference zone, is not proven yet. 

The FabLabs are interesting, but having read up on them, they are not the highly capably flexfab facility like the OSE RepLab/microfactory aims (aims) to be, they are actually quite limited.  So meaningful and practical flexfab stuff has not been demonstrated, yet at any price.